Kristina Lor: Thanks for agreeing to this interview, your book The Enneagram Symbol Mapping the Journey of Personal, Social, and Spiritual Evolution, such an important contribution to the growing body of Enneagram resources and so we wanted to dig in a little deeper with you. First may I ask, why did you feel it was important to write this book?

Jennifer Joss: Honestly, at the beginning, I didn’t really know why. I’d had a vision in the night of the archetypes underlying western thought spread out around the Enneagram, and I became driven to discern the meaning of the universal laws that make up the Symbol. The more I learned, the more I felt responsible to share what I was learning. I knew a number of people doing deep inner work with the Enneagram, seeking to awaken beyond ego, who seemed to be lost and struggling, including myself. As it became clearer to me that the Symbol provides a map not only for psychospiritual development but also social change, I knew I had to write it down.

The laws of the Symbol are indeed universal. They exist everywhere and in everything, governing the process of creation and evolution. They are like the “structure” of Reality itself. This means the laws work through us as well. When integrated, they show the way to become aligned with that structure (or logos) that is shot through all of Creation and participate in the creative unfolding of life. What could be more important than that!?

Kristina Lor: I understand working on a manuscript is full of unexpected twists and turns, what surprised you most during the journey of writing this book?

Jennifer Joss: Just how deeply I was personally involved in the process. It was not simply an intellectual pursuit. I felt I was living in the Symbol in some way for the seven years I was working on the book. The covid predicament was a strange blessing for me in that it allowed me a great deal of time, and time alone, in the discovery process. A Symbol is a funny thing, itself a kind of “bridge” from one level of meaning to another. It’s hard to describe, but it kind of pulls you in if you have the patience to stay in the conversation.

There were many times I was confused about something for months…and then it was like a door opened (maybe in me) and I understood what was going on. For example, when I realized that the law of three is really about the emergent 4th thing that arises at a new dimension of being. Or, that to truly understand the law of seven we have to integrate two lines of work: one represented by the journey of Being around the Symbol and the other as a Knowing (or gnosis) via the hexad figure, that can be received only after developing a level of virtuous being.

Kristina Lor: As complicated as the Enneagram can be and as difficult as it can be to internalize so many of its nuances, I’m wondering what was the most challenging part of writing about such a complex and nuanced subject?

Jennifer Joss: The constant need to hold the tension of realizing that the mysteries of the Symbol are vast and in some sense “unknowable,” and still allow myself to trust and to share what I am learning, as I weave together all these threads of inquiry from science, from our mythic tradition, from spiritual and wisdom traditions, and from Gurdjieff himself, who introduced this particular Symbol to the modern world.

I suppose the other thing, which I am still struggling with, is how to convey the richness and beauty of what is in this Symbol in a way that invites others into their own journeys of discovery without overwhelming them with complexity.

Kristina Lor: You’re clearly an expert and thought-leader in this field, still, did your understanding of the Enneagram deepen or evolve while writing this book? How so?

Jennifer Joss: Oh completely, and totally. The writing process was a discovery process, as I relayed above, and I learned so much through the Symbol. But I also learned many things about the Enneagram of Personality, the types and subtypes, passions, fixations, and the meaning of the Virtues and Holy Ideas. It was important to me to not just take different teachers’ versions of these things, but to turn to the Symbol itself to distill their meaning.

There is so much that can be explained through this map! For example, have you ever wondered why there are three Holy Ideas for point 3 and point 7? This has to do with “layers” of work we are doing, related to dimensions of Being, at these junctures along the Way. With the right kind of work, the layer that opens at point 3 comes to fruition at point 7. The number of Holy ideas at each point is significant in the larger story that unfolds through the Symbol.

More pointedly, I believe that a shared understanding of the laws of the Symbol could help the global Enneagram community resolve disagreements about the nature of types and subtypes (which have always bothered me). For example, based on the laws, I could tell you why the passion of Type 3 is Deceit (not Vanity), my guess as to why Naranjo switched these, and exactly what we would have to explore/debate further to resolve this important distinction. If we really wanted to dig in here, the laws could clarify additional disagreements about subtypes.

Kristina Lor: You talk about what drew you to the Enneagram in your book, could you expand on how learning about the Enneagram impacted your life?

Jennifer Joss: Oh boy, well, that would take another book. And probably it’s only interesting to a party of one: me. Suffice it to say…it changed everything, from the inside out. I continue to learn and evolve, as does my understanding of the Symbol. At the center of it all, however, is Holy Love and how to live in Right Action as a clear channel and continuous upwelling of spirit as it arises through the quirky and terribly human soul that I am.

Kristina Lor: If you could go back and tell your younger self one thing about the Enneagram, what would it be?

Jennifer Joss: This is the key to everything; the “instruction book” for life that you will continue to look for until you become it.

Kristina Lor: What would you like readers to receive from reading this book?

Jennifer Joss: The book was written in such a way as a to take people on a journey. It moves from theory that may exhaust or offend the analytical mind, metaphor meant to speak to the heart, and into an alchemical integration of the two that I hoped (by then) would bring the laws of the Symbol to life in them. The book is not for everyone. I have not promoted it and purposefully did not ask for endorsements for this reason. You have to listen for your own call to adventure.

Kristina Lor: This has been so helpful, I appreciate you making time for this conversation. In closing, what’s next for you as an author and Enneagram teacher? Do you see this as part of a larger body of work?

Jennifer Joss: I still teach and coach with the Enneagram, and all of this has grown richer with the transformational map provided by the Symbol. Whether we are awakening out of habitual type patterns that no longer serve us, awakening into a new level of conscious leadership, or wanting to access more of our divinity, the stages and practices laid out in the arc of the journey can support us. I hope to share more of my excitement and understanding of the Symbol as a guide to this process in podcasts and speaking opportunities (like this interview, thank you), and I am imagining a companion workbook for the book that people can use to take themselves on the journey.

Last year I held a 10 week online course that took an amazing group on a hero’s journey of inner work around the Symbol. It was sometimes confusing, often surprising, and incredibly fulfilling. We worked simultaneously at “layers” of the work, embodying and integrating the laws through three types of meditation, concrete practices, and bringing each point to life through its unique challenges and gifts. I may offer this again at some point, and eventually I will hold an in person retreat, as the Enneagram is a kind of a portal best experienced energetically. 

Dr. Jennifer Joss is a psychologist by training, a coach and consultant by profession, and a Hermetic philosopher at heart. She has been involved with the evolution of people and systems for 30 years, in non-profit as well as for-profit organizations, across diverse industries. Jennifer integrates psychology and neuroscience, systems dynamics and leadership development, with the wisdom of spiritual and mythic traditions, and inner technologies that have guided people for centuries.

Jennifer holds a Ph.D. in counseling psychology from Stanford’s School of Education and graduated from Harvard with high honors in psychology. As a certified Enneagram and Enneagram in Business professional, she has used the Enneagram to help people and teams personalize learning and map transformation. Jennifer’s 30-year relationship with the Enneagram Symbol somehow lured her into a deep and life-changing exploration of its meaning which, although still unfolding, led to the 2023 book: The Enneagram Symbol: Mapping the Journey of Personal, Social, and Spiritual Evolution. Learn more about Jennifer and her work at: www.jumpingcurves.com